I would put it to you that this is hurled as an insult upon men that do not share ones point of view much as in later days terms like slut and bitch were hurled. I find this more than a bit disturbing.
I was recently accused in another forum of this truly despicable sin and social faux paux. I laughed a bit a blew it off since those that know me know the truth as the evidence is readily apparent.
So ladies when and why do ya hurl this insult and why should it be considered acceptable behavior and not racked in the same set of bins as various derogatory statements?
JSin
I was recently accused in another forum of this truly despicable sin and social faux paux. I laughed a bit a blew it off since those that know me know the truth as the evidence is readily apparent.
So ladies when and why do ya hurl this insult and why should it be considered acceptable behavior and not racked in the same set of bins as various derogatory statements?
JSin
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Re: Misogyny
Fri, June 20, 2008 - 9:57 PMI don't think I've ever encountered any true misogynists. And I would hesitate to use the term at all, since it implies I know someone's heart enough to state what they feel towards an entire gender. Have I observed men whose opinion of all women was colored by the actions of a few? Yep. But mistrust of women is not the same as hatred of them. Unfortunately, we all become wary when our experience shows a trend.
Frankly, I'd reserve the term for established serial killers of women.
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Re: Misogyny
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 8:30 PMi've never hurled that insult myself - never saw the need in anyone i've run across online or in RL. and btw as a long time watcher and lover of SATC i think your analogy of the show was spot on ;)
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Re: Misogyny
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 8:39 PMDictionary.com Unabridged
mi·sog·y·ny Pronunciation[mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-]
–noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
Compare misandry.
I use the term whenever I encounter an individual who dislikes or disrespects all women simply because they are female. I have encountered this phenomenon, though much more on the East coast then out here and much more with the older established business men who dislike all these "silly chickies" horning in on their turf. Sometimes I also encounter it among men who have had particularly rough luck in relationships and generalized those experiences into the belief that all women are deceitful or inferior in some way. -
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Re: Misogyny
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 10:36 PMUsing the dictionary term, I have met a few men like that. As for calling one that, I don't think I ever have. I would not use that word for an individual man. I would try to tell him what I was sensing from his behaviour. Now at Mills, I know I used the word to describe entire groups of people while writing a paper.
And I also have met women, who hate women. -
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Women who hate women
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 1:06 AMOh yes, I've met them too. They scare the bejeebus out of me. -
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Re: Women who hate women
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 12:09 AMIn art and literature, I'd have to say that Charles Bukowski and Milan Kundera are misogynists - they *LOVE* women, they just don't actually like them so very much. -
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Re: Women who hate women
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 1:36 AMi'm not trying to be a kiss-ass here, & this may be totally irrelevant, but i've never liked bukowski. i haven't read enough to've formulated an opinion re: whether he's a misogynist. i just think he's way fucking overrated. he's like a less-interesting ginsberg, & let's face it, ginsberg's run could have ended a real long time before it did.
barfly was a pretty good movie, though.
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Re: Misogyny
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 8:47 PMI have suspected misogyny only a few times but in the same way I suspect that someone may be a sexual predator... I would never actually imply that someone was doing something of that nature unless there was proof. I think that the meaning is often not totally understood by those who use it or they are just being aggressive.
Hey, I love the show, but I'm not going to get personally offended if I don't agree with an assessment of them. There are much more serious things to get upset about... like the economy, wildfires set by dumbasses, the inability of Angelenos to use a four way stop properly etc.
People have their triggers, though. I know there are things that cause an immediate reaction in me and I'm a pretty liberal person who believes in everyone's right to express their opinion. Sometimes, I think people take things out of context and refuse to actually take them in context. It's also not easy when you are a blunt communicator, as you are and I often am. I figure, why waste time coddling someone who needs a swift kick in the backside? Hey, I need some raps on the knuckles sometimes too...
Whaddyagonnado? Fahgettaboutit.
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Re: Misogyny
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 9:58 PMMy ex-boyfriend owns the url. (Don't look, it's not up anymore.) He does resent women, but also loves them and needs them. He continues to hurt women over and over and acts innocent about it and blames them. It's never him. It serves to subversively get back at women without him ever being held responsible.
I think when he was younger he was pretty close to being psychotic about it, but he's worked through a lot of it. Men would send him evil rants when the site was up and he'd talk them down, especially when it was a complaint about women being fat or ugly. Then he'd set them straight about their pickiness keeping them from the intimacy they actually wanted.
So technically, I could call him a misogynist, but I really don't think it would be an insult to someone who embraces that part of himself. I've never felt the need to call anyone else that, either.
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Re: Misogyny
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 8:16 AMThere are people who abuse terms, certainly there are people who are overly sensitive and call misogyny more often then I would or can conceive of it being true at least in the people I deal with in my life and in our culture. I have run into men who I believe were misogynistic, and men who while I wouldn't say they were necessarily misogynistic held beliefs that I feel are.
I wasn't there for the discussion so I don't know what the case was with this particular experience of yours. But I think it's possible that it was not hurled as slut would be hurled but used because the women beliefs what you were saying was in fact misogynistic. Was it? well that is where opinion comes in. Maybe she sincerely believes that what you said is misogynistic. Maybe it's a trump card she tries to play I have no idea.
My mother's husband will tell racial jokes, discuss politics that seem to me to be insulting to the non republican, middle to upper class white people people he comes from...and then respond just as you did to being called a racist or even being asked if one of his political stands is racist. He sees himself and his views totally differently then I do. I can't say that I'm right, but I can tell you that when I say I believe he is racist it is absolutely sincere and not something I'm hurling at him simply because he doesn't agree with everything I believe.
I also have seen people who give every indication of being racist or homophobic or misogynist who hide behind this idea that it shouldn't be acceptable to call someone out with these descriptions. I don't buy it. I think that misogyny is extremely important to be able to call someone on and by using the word. What would you propose be the appropriate reaction when someone runs into a misogynistic attitude? I think that identifying something by it's correct name is the most appropriate response. Far better then just hurling insults. Far better even when the perceiver is misunderstanding because it gives a clear place for discussion to begin.
Can it be abused? certainly. But that is a different issue then if it should ever be used at all. Racism is the best correlation I can think of. It is absolutely appropriate to discuss and name as such, and it has absolutely been abused also. would it be inappropriate for me to call a KKK member racist? should I put away the derogatory statement and...do what? Do you not believe there really are misogynists out there? -
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Re: Misogyny
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 9:34 PMI think racism is a great analogy. Racism is pretty much universally accepted as wrong now ( I hope) . So when someone says something that racist it's pretty easy ( well easier) to call them on it.
Sexism or misogyny may be harder to detect in some ways. And society's attitudes are very different about it.
Some women don't mind other women or themselves being called a slut. OK. I mind of course.
Some African-Americans call each other Nigga. But calling some one else ( not your close friends) a nigger is totally off limits. Why is calling someone else a slut any different? ( I am really asking this question, it is not rhetorical. )
I'm firmly in the Bill Cosby camp of, you can participate in your our degradation but why? Although who know maybe Malcolm X would say " you define yourself" and if a nigga is who you want to define yourself as, by all means. If you want to be known as a slut, then I'm sure you can too.
(Women can be sexist and minorities groups can be racist obviously )
Why do we perpetuate this stuff through our language? -
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Re: Misogyny
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 11:06 PMI think you're missing the point that people that call themselves 'slut' do not do so as a means of degrading themselves or being insular such as those who call themselves 'nigger'. Another huge difference is that 'nigger' was used NOT as a behavior based term, but according to appearances and as a means of separation. The views of the behavior of being a 'slut' has changed, so has the connotation for many. (Again, this is WHY it's different).
I think the whole point of contention was the difference between typifying someone fictional in a snarky way and attacking someone's actual life and personality in a malicious way instead of just voicing disapproval like an adult.
Technically, minorities cannot be racist, they can be prejudiced. Racism implies power.
Why we perpetuate anything through language can be answered by the fact that it's a human trait. For example, we perpetuate our own confusion by asking questions and not wanting answers that don't align with ours... that perpetuates confusion; if we really knew why are we asking? Language and identity are inseparable. From pronunciation to the formation of sentences, to the connotations and misunderstandings. We give ourselves away every time we speak.
This reminds me of the whole debate over the term 'vanilla'. No one got irate about it, we just voiced our opinions.
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Re: Misogyny
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:31 AMAschleigh - "So when someone says something that racist it's pretty easy ( well easier) to call them on it."
I think that depends on the context, the power dynamic and how overtly xenophobic they're being. Sometimes people's prejudiced assumptions (or habitual way of thinking) run so deep and are so interwoven into their social/cultural/family fiber that the person who holds them doesn't even recognize them as being xenophobic.
To add to what quel said... Reclaiming a word as a means to disempower it or imbue it with new meaning was a ploy that became popular in the 80s and has been used by various oppressed groups and communities with varying degrees of success. The queer community is a good example (queer was a provocative and insulting word before being reclaimed and recontextualized to be positive) of a success. The idea of the ethical slut is really quite an empowered idea - it involves self value, self control and self respect (and respect for others), which in turn creates a context for sexual freedom and self-responsibility to coexist (and it isn't about women/girls in competition with each other). GGW and tweens in glittery "slut" t-shirts, not so much of the empowerment. There's a difference between having a powerful sexuality and thinking that being sexy is personal power - personal power comes from within in the first case and is self generated, in the second case it's external and dependent upon the approval of others.
The idea isn't to perpetuate abusive words so much but to recontextualize them and give them a different meaning so that they're not as hateful/hurtful - and to sort of say "yeah, I am, so what? I embrace it and reject your gaze/values". I'm kind of the opinion that Bill Cosby is actually pretty demeaning to anything and anyone that doesn't conform to his very, very mainstream Christian upper middle class values. And considering what kind of dreck he's pretty consistently shoveled into the entertainment industry and onto TV screens (post Fat Albert), I'm not sure he's earned the right to critique culture and particularly something like hip hop. I mean, the dude's as white bread and mayonnaise as any old man who can't dance or keep a beat - and considers contemporary music "noise" - who's shaking his fist at the teenagers and railing against their "bad" music, non-preppy clothes and sexuality from his square of suburban lawn.
The companion to misogyny is "misandry" - a hatred of men and boys - and there are women and men who are misandrists. Just like there are women and men who are misogynist. Our language is a reflection of our world, our society and our thoughts, which is why we perpetuate demeaning attitudes through our words, as well as our actions.
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Re: Misogyny
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 7:20 AMI think your choice of words is interesting.
"...this truly despicable sin and social faux paux... So ladies when and why do ya hurl this insult and why should it be considered acceptable behavior and not racked in the same set of bins as various derogatory statements? "
I don't really get how misogyny is both a truly despicable sin and a social faux pas... That is like something being both a felony and a fix-it ticket... could you clarify that a bit?
I don't see the term so much as an insult (insult to me implies that its an untruth used to hurt or belittle) as a descriptor of a negative trait, like "racist" or "liar".
Sounds to me like you pissed someone off, and they found a useful emotional button to get you worked up. Maybe you should give some thought to why it was so effective--why are you sensitive to being called a misogynist? What does it mean to you?
By "why should it be considered acceptable behavior" do you mean calling someone a misogynist, or being a misogynist? -
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Re: Misogyny
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 8:23 AMfifi: I understand disempowering a word by using it in a new way, about the self. Like the ethical slut.
Jsin actually said " that slut" to describe someone . I may have gone too far in calling it misogynist. ( I don't know if he hates women, that is pretty extreme ) But it seemed sexist . -
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Jane! You ignorant slut!
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 8:36 AMAschleigh - (Sorry, I always think of the SNL skit when I start thinking about sluts - I had to reference it in the subject even though it doesn't make much sense!) Now back to the matter at hand, I guess it depends on whether Jsin likes/loves sluts or not! I'll let him speak for himself regarding his motivations and what he meant since I have no idea. But yes, context makes a huge different in meaning from my perspective.
Generally speaking, it does sound derogatory the way you've framed it (and no doubt heard it). If it was said with hate, then it's hateful (and focusing on someone's sexuality as a means to diminish them, and implying that a woman is worth less or not worth respecting if she's not pure/virginal/chaste is a pretty historically misogynist idea and sexist - unless you believe that men are also worth less and not worth respecting if they're not pure/virginal/chaste...and then you're just a prude or a Fundie! ;-). If it was said with love or humour, then it's loving or funny.
Jsin seems to have a hate on for people in general at the moment, which would make him misanthropic. You know, to get technical about the whole thing. ;-) -
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Re: Jane! You ignorant slut!
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 11:12 AMThe crux of the biscuit was that you (Ashleigh), launched a very personal attack on him after you got offended with his usage of the word. The fact that he's only focusing on the misogyny part is amazing, because it was very ugly and uncalled for. Of course, he returned the favor.
Maybe try asking him what he thinks before assuming. In any event. I'm glad you rethought it. -
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Re: Jane! You ignorant slut!
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:02 PMYeah I dropped the personal attack after one volley because I did not like how it made me feel when I re read it. It was retaliatory and a reaction rather than an action. I do not take back a single word of it since I believe from what I have read and the actions of the individual in question that it is inf act on balance an accurate evaluation of the course of the individual's life in the next 10 years... I may be wrong. she may find someone to make all her Cinderella dreams come true.
The accusation of Misogyny to me was slanderous and libelous. This I could not allow to easily pass definately given the numerous discussions concerning the reformation of the word slut.
JSin
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Re: Jane! You ignorant slut!
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 5:58 PMI love that bit.... lol Mostly because it is poking fun at the issue we are discussing. Saw an interview with Akaroid that indicated one of his biggest fears concerning that was that he would be labeled a Misogynist.
To the task at hand. Yep Fifi is right I am a Misanthrope, I tend to dislike almost all people. There are exceptions but they are just that exceptions. I call them my friends. If ya quickly look through my friends list you will find that the majority are women... Why? Not because I am just a cold pimp but rather because women tend to be the gender I trust. My Misoandrus behaviors are far more marked.
The character in question played by Kim Cattrall is written as a stereotypical "Liberated slut" actually the type of woman I love to have in my life Why? becuase she is retaking the role of a strong sexually liberated woman to society in what amounts to a very acceptable manner. I honestly would trust her more than any of the other women on the show Sex in the City. Sure I called her a slut and said I would take her for a ride. But think about it the character as written would like that. I would not have to lie to her, tell her I love her, deceive her. She is the type of woman who I could tell straight out "Damn I would love to fuck your brains out and leave ya stupid" likely she would tell me not to bother calling her in the morning. No harm no foul. Just sex as enjoyment and entertainment.
JSin
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Re: Misogyny
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:05 PMAschleigh pawed out:
"Jsin actually said " that slut" to describe someone . "
REPEAT AFTER ME TV IS NOT REAL
It is a fictional character. If ya wanna get irked do so at the writers. I do not for a minute believe that Kim Cattrall behaves as her character does... Do You?
JSin
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Re: Misogyny
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:08 PMDarkly asked
"I don't really get how misogyny is both a truly despicable sin and a social faux pas... That is like something being both a felony and a fix-it ticket... could you clarify that a bit? "
Because a Social Faux Paux carries a heavier burden as there is no hell for an unrepentant sinner such as myself to go to. Simply a figure of speech more along the lines of Mrs Grundy wagging her finger for your sinful ways and the security guard telling you to behave.
JSin
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Re: Misogyny
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 4:29 PMI have called only one person a misogynist, and he really is. I spit every time I think about him. -
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Re: Misogyny
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 9:07 AMLet's see, ......
My daughters father depises women, abuses them, treats them like sh!t,
repeatedly states there good for nothing but sucking dick,
& blames them for all the problems in the world.
Verdict: Misogynist!
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