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My occupational degrees are in education and criminal justice, which means that there are often background checks if and when I apply for a new job. About ten years ago I broke up with a woman who apparently developed some psychological problems and decided that I was a Bad Man (tm). Twice she has sought a restraining order against me and while the first was denied in 1999, a second judge in 2006 granted one and told me it could later be rescinded. When I went down to the courthouse about this, though, I find this is not the case. At some point I am probably going to have to spend between $1-3K to find her and get an official court record that I never threatened her, struck her, damaged her property, committed any crime and whatnot. This should be relatively straightforward, but he question I have for you sexy women is this:
As long as I have to pay to bring her into court and clear my name, how appropriate is it to spend a little extra money to return a legal favor and embarrass her as well?
As long as I have to pay to bring her into court and clear my name, how appropriate is it to spend a little extra money to return a legal favor and embarrass her as well?
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:16 PMhmmm this is a hard one to answer because of the karma factor. you're right to clear your name, and depending on how you do it, you *will* actually show her to be a crazy-head. i dont know if you'll want to spend the extra to embarrass her. you'll want to think of ALL the conscequences. will people look upon you as one who gets vengance if you do that? will they think of you as someone who *tattles* (for lack of a better word)? i dont have a good vocabulary, so i'm sure there's another way of saying it.
if you *do* plan on going through with it...i would suggest looking at ALL the angles. good luck!
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:37 PMAs a teacher myself I find it horrifying that someone can
get a judge to issue a restraining order against someone
with no physical proof. And I know it's possible because
I had one issued once. Now granted, there was a reason
for the one I got against my ex husband. But I didn't have
to do anything except go in and talk to a judge. To prove
that it was unfounded won't be easy though.
Scary! -
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Tue, March 25, 2008 - 10:26 PMGeez,
& all it took for me to get a restraining order against my daughters father was medical (concussion, broken ribs) & police reports <(called in by concerned neighbor).
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I don't understand from your post what you're suggesting.
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 3:53 AMWhat are you proposing to do that requires spending a little extra money? It sounds as though you're thinking of some sort of vengeance.
Clearing yourself: right and proper.
Going beyond that: I can't say. My instinct says that you yourself think it's ethically questionable, or you wouldn't be asking us.
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Unsu...
Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 5:16 AMAlways take the high road when you hold the winning hand. It makes you look really good.
or, if you're more ethically inclined than me, do unto others as you would have them do unto you (not "as they have done to you") -
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 9:15 AMI agree with PapaRed--
but, so as to allow yourself to heal and move on afterwards, that's where I would advise you to focus your energy--
I would think that some delicious thoughts of revenge may float thru your mind, and hopefully float away allowing you to use your brilliant and creative mind energy for other, more productive things....
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:23 AMI agree with pretty much everyone else. Clear your name, and leave it at that. Just the simple fact that you are asking our opinion kinda shows that you know that you probably shouldn't do it. For one, its bad karma, and for 2... it could turn around and bite you in the ass.
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 12:47 PMUnderstandable, maybe, but not appropriate.
Separate the emotion from the problem, and take care of it, even though it wasn't an accident and it's not justice, release the emotion, resolve the issue, and move on. You will be a better man for that.
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Unsu...
Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 1:52 PMI have to say this sounds like a bad idea on many fronts.
First, it won't make you look innocent of any malice to then be attacking her legally. It's not going to help your case.
Second, it may even convince her that you are harassing her or feed her delusions.
Third, she is taking these actions because she suffers from psychological problems, not out of an actual intent to cause you harm. While her actions aren't reasonable or fair, they are the actions of someone who is ill and not in control of herself. However, you *are* sane and in control of yourself and you *do* understand your actions, so attempting some kind of payback would be petty, mean and pretty questionable.
if you wish to have her pay for your legal fees because the charges were unfounded, that's fine. If you wish to file some kind of restraining order or non-communication order because you feel she's harassing you, that's fine as well. But taking vindictive action just won't reflect well on your person. -
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 5:18 PMWell, there's a difference between pay-back, and letting someone know "Don't fuck with me anymore, or this.." This sounds like the former. If it's the latter, fine, go for it. But payback for payback's sake is just a waste of time and mental energy that could be spent otherwise.
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 6:42 PMsmart people here in this tribe.
take the high road. two wrongs do not make a right, and trying to get revenge on someone who's already shown they're a little off is a very unpredictable thing to do.
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Re: Returning a Legal Favor
Wed, March 26, 2008 - 11:16 PMIs it possible for you to ask the judge to award you the cost of your legal fees when the restraining order is discounted?
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Update
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:51 PMInformed partly by advice here and partly by increasingly serious allegations to the police by my former friend, I have ended up spending over a year's wages on legal nonsense, as is chronicled in some detail at CatherineLynneCarter.com
Thanks for your counsel, everyone. -
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Re: Update
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 9:20 PMMac, I believe if you are questioning the move to embarrass your ex yourself then you really have answered your own question.
The wisdom of "if in doubt don't" has never let me down.
Also, I have been in a place where I had something over someone/tables turned on them so-to-speak and I did not return the blow.
Sure I entertained the idea in my mind. The satisfaction of the moment. But I knew that feeling would be short-lived.
In the big picture, I did not want to be like them. My personal integrity mattered more to me and I feel karma has been good to me for it.
In the end people who scheme eventually get caught in their own traps. Just my take on it....
Good luck to you!
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Re: Update
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 9:20 PMThat is frightening...and I don't mean whatever she may or may not have done to you I mean what you are doing and how much time and scary energy you must be putting into it. -
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Re: Update
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 8:48 AMI completely agree that it was an astonishingly wasteful level of stupidity on all sides. It was when her accusations had risen to the level of multiple class-A felonies and police detectives seemed to believe her that I felt I finally had to act. I do not have the time or money or spend the next ten years risking arbitrary arrest or paying defense attorneys to explain things repeatedly on my behalf. This woman abused a good law in a way that harmed me and can be used to discredit other women.
Given that she can (and should be allowed to) tell the police whatever she likes, SV, what were my better options? My calculation was that a lot of money and energy now would save more money and trouble and energy later. Most of this content was left-over detritus from the suit and would be lost if not repurposed.
Is my offense that I fought back non-violently against injustice? Abuse of the justice system undermines its proper use, for women without money who are not lawyers and can't afford three separate lawyers. -
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Re: Update
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 8:56 AMI don't understand what that site did for you besides IMO make it look like you were indeed stalking her. -
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Re: Update
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 11:35 AM>I don't understand what that site did for you besides IMO make it look like you were indeed stalking her.
I agree with this! Maintaining a website apparently named after the woman in question wherein you present sensitive legal documents to the public seems pretty stalky to me.
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Re: Update
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 2:20 PM"I don't understand what that site did for you besides IMO make it look like you were indeed stalking her."
I agree with SV.
That is a lot of energy and detail you have/are putting into her.
Putting a website in her name is stalking behavior.
It is also harrassment and gives validity to her claims.
With this being of a legal nature, I would suggest you talk with an attorney and think twice
about posting anything online. It could work for you, but also against you.
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Re: Update
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 9:14 PMi don't know which advice here you interpreted as suggesting that you buy the URL of your ex's name, and use it to "repurpose" legal transcripts of a case that wouldn't have happened if you had just left her alone in the first place.
looking at that site makes me think that accusations of stalking and harrassment are probably not far-fetched. i get that you don't think so, and i really don't want to hear any other details about why you're right and she's wrong (way too much drama)... i'm saying that to me, it feels obsessive, and that makes me think that what you really should have spent your time and money on was some professional support in how to let go of this relationship.
you originally said you wanted to fight back so it wouldn't affect future employment opportunities. i think your strategy may backfire in the long run. -
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Re: Update
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 12:00 AMMac,
Ever hear the term kicking a dead dog?
Sometimes we can obsess over situations....
and sometimes we have to let things go so we can move forward with our own lives.
You can't focus on your future and things you enjoy
if you are spending your money, time and energy wrapped up in this situation from your past.
Have you asked yourself why you are putting so much into prooving yourself right/her wrong?
If your reasoning is about protecting your job you are not doing yourself any favors airing your dirty laundry.
You can put information out here in a public arena,
just keep in mind that not everyone is going to see this situation like you do.
Including your employer or co workers. Some employers might consider posting such personal info as unprofessional.
Another question to ask here is what do you hope to accomplish for putting all this out here for everyone?
Is it for honest opinions?
Or is for approval/support/again returning to your preoccupation with wanting to proove you are right?
Well, hopefully it is the first answer: to get some honest opinions and feedback (even if someone does not agree with you).
IMO, from what you have shared, you seem preoccupied with this woman (and your past with her) on a level that is unhealthy.
Leaving this woman alone and putting this behind you I feel is in both your best interest.
You may believe if you could "proove her wrong", it will make things different or better, balance the scale, heal you, etc..
but that is not based in reality.
Also, a better/more productive option (as Leslie mentioned) would be talking with someone, a counselor, (someone professional).
I believe could really help you find a way to get some closure....and that is really what you need to be free from this.
~One~
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Unsu...
Re: Update
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 6:02 AMI glad you managed to get through that, and to recover some of your expenses, if not the energy put in. -
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Unsu...
Re: Update
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 6:14 AMAlthough I have to agree with some of the other opinions voiced here, that it is time to let go of that past. I didn't realize that the site where you chronicled this was your ex's name; doing that crossed a line. Stealing another person's name for a url is generally regarded as a severe breach of etiquette in the tech world. Aside from which, it makes you look vindictive and preoccupied with trashing her name in the same way you feel yours has been trashed. 2 wrongs ≠ right. -
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Re: Update
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:48 PMYeah, you're crossing a line, here, Mac. Not appropriate. I understand the desire & need to clear yr name... I say if you can, do it, & LET THIS GO. Move on. Not doing so will probably hurt you at least as much as it hurts her... & prolong the relationship. if that's what you want, well...
The fact you're getting mad enough to cross the line makes me wonder if the truth is more gray-area here than a simple "she's crazy." I have a temper & hate to be wronged, too, but there's a time to be the one big enough to quit. Since you're asking, I say, do it. Be the big person.
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Thanks Again for Your Feedback
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:02 AMThanks, everyone, for your views and comments. The domain was actually registered back in 2006, immediately after she embarrassed me in front of an employee by having me served with the *second* subpoena within seven years, asserting I wanted to harm her for reasons she could never specify. Anticipating years of legal trouble, the domain seemed a good tool to have in reserve, and so it was. I am well within my legal rights, as she is with her previous threats and bogus complaints. What was important to me was to provide her plenty of time and opportunity to address her mental-health issues and withdraw her legal attack. She chose not to do that, so I went forward with what seemed morally permissible to me under the circumstances.
Having never struck her, threatened her, followed her, waited for her or damaged her property, I find it hard to see how my behavior merits accusations of stalking (which is one of the reasons that the site contains general resources on stalking). Given that I have not been to her house uninvited, emailed, telephoned or otherwise spoken with her in over ten years, I was at a loss as to how to defend myself against her dramatic accusations. I chose what seemed to me the least worst option and am comfortable with that going forward. At this point it is not so much about the principle of the thing as the money. I hope that the web site inoculates me against future accusations and demonstrates I will counter-attack, using materials which she introduces into the public record. She is playing what Eric Berne once called a "second-degree game," best neutralized by exposure.
I addressed my issues around her departure back in 1998 and 1999, having logged hundreds of hours in therapy around the issues that led to my severe depression. I wish that she had done something similar, rather than wasting thousands of dollars on lawyers. When a person interprets your presence on the Internet as a threat, has a gun-toting boyfriend and repeatedly tries to invoke the deadly force inherent in the criminal justice system, the number of legal and non-violent options is limited and mostly expensive. Before this is done, the entire thing will probably cost close to $30,000 to return to exactly the legal position she had when last we spoke in June of 1998.
Stalking is a serious issue, and any woman who abuses the system designed to protect against real danger and domestic violence does damage to the system and betrays the sisterhood. What I have done and am prepared to do is distasteful but legal, non-violent and necessary. It is also fairly clinical and dispassionate. Anger is not really at issue here, and although it started as being a matter of principle, it is now largely a matter of money.
I was bigger than her for ten years, which was enough, if not four years too long. Thanks again for your feedback. -
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Re: Thanks Again for Your Feedback
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 3:20 AMI'm not clear why you asked what you what we think about the situation.
Perhaps what you're doing is taking an opportunity to vent? Asking for support about a choice already made?
I wrote what I did given the info you previously gave us. Seems you had already decided what to do, have taken steps to protect your name, & that's that.
Hope it all works out, that you can address the matter quickly, & put it all to rest. Hopefully, you won't have to have any direct contact w/ yr ex, given the issues.
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